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There's also a question of how Zionism conceives

Arabs, and it has become current for Arabs to

call Zionism a racial, a racist ideology.

Now, what, Patrick Seale, is the basis of that charge?

Well, I know it's a charge which created outrage when it

was first raised.

I think at the UN, they tried to dub Zionism as a racist

thing.

But you see, unfortunately, I think there is something in it.

I mean, much as one hates to say so, but if you just look at some of the

statements, say, of a man like Begin, I mean, he's always

ranting about Jewish blood and how precious it is,

with the implication, of course,

that Arab blood is much less precious.

And he says things like, Palestinians are animals walking on two paws.

Or you remember his chief of staff at the time, Rafael Eitan, talked about

Palestinians being cockroaches in a bottle.

Now, he talks about blood libel against the

Jews, or of course, his famous

phrase at the time of the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

He said, if Goyim kill Goyim, what concern is it of ours?

Now, that, it seems to me, is an absolutely racial remark.

Now, of course, this is not the only basis of that evidence.

There's a great deal more, and particularly, of course,

the treatment of

Jews from Arab countries in Israel, and they would be the first, I think,

to say

that they had been treated in a racialist way.

I've just been reading a very interesting book-

I thoroughly disagree with that. I must thoroughly disagree with that.

Right.

Now, of course, you mention I can give you a list of two

dozen

other loudmouth generals in Israel who have said outrageous things, but this you

can say about every country. I mean, in this country, there are no loudmouth

politicians and loudmouth generals.

Surely I would not make generalizations about England on the basis of what a

couple

of politicians there have said about the

West Indian immigrants and so forth.

Is Begin just a random politician, or does he represent a trend?

Begin, well, Begin does not represent a trend.

Begin, I think, is

a very sad consequence of

40 or 50 years of Arab-Israeli wars. About Mr.

Begin and about Mr. Rafael that you had mentioned,

I think I would say, by

way of generalization, that the Arab extremists,

who are our worst enemies, by the way,

they have at least already achieved one great victory

over us

in that they have succeeded to infect us,

or some of us, with their brutality and their extremism.

This, I think, is a consequence of 50 and 60 years of war.

I think what Patrick is saying, in another way,

I'd like to reformulate and say

that had there been in the United States, for

example,

immigration laws which said that only white Anglo-Saxon Protestants

can emigrate and get a citizenship, then you as a Jew

and I as a Palestinian would object.

Now, the same law, an inverse formulation of the same law,

which says

that only a Jew can emigrate to Israel,

whereas a Palestinian who is born there and

can—that cannot-

But please, don't forget the historic context.

No, no, I'm sure. I'm not saying-

This law was passed barely five or six years after the gates of

Auschwitz had closed.

No, I understand that.

When everybody had seen that the Jews were the only people who

were thrown in the

gas chambers because they were the only people in Europe who had

absolutely no control, not even the slightest measure of control

over their

fate.

But doesn't it-

The Jews convinced themselves, rightly or wrongly, that this had happened because

they did not have a territory, because they did not have any power.

No, I accept all that. I accept all that.

This law was passed.

No, I'm not-

Let's put this question more precisely.

How exactly do you justify, not in forty-seven or forty-eight when

the Auschwitz case seems to be unanswerable, but how do you justify in

nineteen eighty-seven a law of return which entitles a

Jew from London or from Manchester to return to

enjoy rights and citizenship protection in

Israel which are denied to Arabs born in that country,

born on that territory?